Political change never a smooth process

Barbara Harvey is a familiar face at Indonesian events in Washington. One cannot miss the short, white-haired woman questioning Indonesian officials who pass through the city.

The former United States deputy chief of mission in Jakarta (1993-1997) says she still follows Indonesian news. She is retired, but taught a seminar on Indonesia at Georgetown University last spring. Here is an excerpt of an interview with the Post's correspondent Yenni Djahidin after a recent forum at the Indonesian Embassy in Washington.

What do you think of the current political situation in Indonesia?

I am very concerned that the democratic process maybe derailed by the fighting among the Jakarta elite. And this is a concern from someone who has followed Indonesia for a long time. There seems to be not enough concern about the future of Indonesia, but more concern among many members of the Indonesian elite for their own interest.

What do Americans think about Indonesia?

Historically, there have been problems because Americans are not very well-informed about other countries. And I think Indonesia has been a victim of that because they (Americans) only learn about Indonesia through CNN and usually it is bad news. People don't have much of a context for following the information.

Those who do follow the current situation, I think, are also concerned, knowing that the ending of the authoritarian government of Soeharto provided an opportunity to move in a democratic manner. Obviously, there has been movement in that direction. But there is not yet a real tackling of the need for economic reform.

Certainly, the current budget and the large deficit is a great worry. I understand that there has been some progress in legal and judicial reforms. And I would hope that the people who are working on that would continue, despite what happens in terms of the political aspects.

Do you think democracy is still the best for Indonesia or should we just return to the Soeharto era where things were stable and we knew who was in charge?

That certainly is up to the Indonesians to decide for themselves. I think people often forget that change, particularly political change, is disruptive. Change is never going to be a smooth and easy process. On the other hand, if these people have the interests of the country and the people (at heart), then they might make some different decisions.

Is democracy still what Indonesia needs?

I've been reluctant to say that they need something else. Certainly, there are many different varieties of democratic institutions. Probably, one of the problems in Indonesia has been that the Constitution provides a mix of parliamentary and presidential systems. I think the (legislature) has been treating it as a parliamentary system and the President has been treating it as a presidential system. That's one of the structural roots of the conflict between them.

The 1945 Constitution is very brief, so people can read into it, in any case, (that) is what they want. I know there are proposals for constitutional reforms, but again there are many able people in Indonesia who are working on this question and I think they will come up with their own version.

How positive are you about Indonesia's future?

Well ... my first time in Indonesia was from 1962 to 1964. And the situation was much more difficult at that time than it is now. And that's true, politically and economically. Certainly, at that time, the suffering of the people was enormous. I was living in Surabaya. I was a U.S. government official who was basically living from what was available in the local stores. There was a time when you could not get cooking oil, flour or sugar. All rice had to be mixed with other grains. Many more people were living on the streets, there were many more homeless people and a great deal of malnutrition.

Things were really in a dire situation. And of course, the political fighting at that time between the Communist party and its opponents was also getting very tense. And I left in 1964 before the attempted coup. So, compared to that, it's not bad now.

What should the Bush administration do?

Probably as little as possible. The U.S. doesn't have a very good record of intervening in a helpful way in other countries. I think most of our helpful interventions have been in things like helping develop universities, helping educational programs, helping health programs. These are all long term, and are all help to develop the strength of local institutions. And that's what, I think, we should continue to do. But I don't think we have a role in trying to tell Indonesia how to handle its internal problems.

Indonesia is always calling for reestablishing military to military cooperation. What do you think?

I think that would be beneficial, but it's very strongly opposed by many members of Congress because of the involvement of many Indonesian military personnel in human rights abuses in the past. However, I'm of the view that if you want to improve someone's behavior, you must try to train them. That if you simply ignore them, its not going to help them improve their behavior. Also, obviously, not everybody you train comes out as a perfectly schooled officer who never does anything wrong.

In general, from my experience and from what I've been told by people, including Bishop (Carlos Felipe Ximenes) Belo, officers who are trained abroad treated people better than those who had never had any experience outside of the country.