Political change never a smooth process

Political change never a smooth process

Barbara Harvey is a familiar face at Indonesian events in
Washington. One cannot miss the short, white-haired woman
questioning Indonesian officials who pass through the city.

The former United States deputy chief of mission in Jakarta
(1993-1997) says she still follows Indonesian news. She is
retired, but taught a seminar on Indonesia at Georgetown
University last spring. Here is an excerpt of an interview with
the Post's correspondent Yenni Djahidin after a recent forum at
the Indonesian Embassy in Washington.

What do you think of the current political situation in
Indonesia?

I am very concerned that the democratic process maybe derailed
by the fighting among the Jakarta elite. And this is a concern
from someone who has followed Indonesia for a long time. There
seems to be not enough concern about the future of Indonesia, but
more concern among many members of the Indonesian elite for their
own interest.

What do Americans think about Indonesia?

Historically, there have been problems because Americans are
not very well-informed about other countries. And I think
Indonesia has been a victim of that because they (Americans) only
learn about Indonesia through CNN and usually it is bad news.
People don't have much of a context for following the
information.

Those who do follow the current situation, I think, are also
concerned, knowing that the ending of the authoritarian
government of Soeharto provided an opportunity to move in a
democratic manner. Obviously, there has been movement in that
direction. But there is not yet a real tackling of the need for
economic reform.

Certainly, the current budget and the large deficit is a great
worry. I understand that there has been some progress in legal
and judicial reforms. And I would hope that the people who are
working on that would continue, despite what happens in terms of
the political aspects.

Do you think democracy is still the best for Indonesia or
should we just return to the Soeharto era where things were
stable and we knew who was in charge?

That certainly is up to the Indonesians to decide for
themselves. I think people often forget that change, particularly
political change, is disruptive. Change is never going to be a
smooth and easy process. On the other hand, if these people have
the interests of the country and the people (at heart), then they
might make some different decisions.

Is democracy still what Indonesia needs?

I've been reluctant to say that they need something else.
Certainly, there are many different varieties of democratic
institutions. Probably, one of the problems in Indonesia has been
that the Constitution provides a mix of parliamentary and
presidential systems. I think the (legislature) has been treating
it as a parliamentary system and the President has been treating
it as a presidential system. That's one of the structural roots
of the conflict between them.

The 1945 Constitution is very brief, so people can read into
it, in any case, (that) is what they want. I know there are
proposals for constitutional reforms, but again there are many
able people in Indonesia who are working on this question and I
think they will come up with their own version.

How positive are you about Indonesia's future?

Well ... my first time in Indonesia was from 1962 to 1964. And
the situation was much more difficult at that time than it is
now. And that's true, politically and economically. Certainly, at
that time, the suffering of the people was enormous. I was living
in Surabaya. I was a U.S. government official who was basically
living from what was available in the local stores. There was a
time when you could not get cooking oil, flour or sugar. All rice
had to be mixed with other grains. Many more people were living
on the streets, there were many more homeless people and a great
deal of malnutrition.

Things were really in a dire situation. And of course, the
political fighting at that time between the Communist party and
its opponents was also getting very tense. And I left in 1964
before the attempted coup. So, compared to that, it's not bad
now.

What should the Bush administration do?

Probably as little as possible. The U.S. doesn't have a very
good record of intervening in a helpful way in other countries. I
think most of our helpful interventions have been in things like
helping develop universities, helping educational programs,
helping health programs. These are all long term, and are all
help to develop the strength of local institutions. And that's
what, I think, we should continue to do. But I don't think we
have a role in trying to tell Indonesia how to handle its
internal problems.

Indonesia is always calling for reestablishing military to
military cooperation. What do you think?

I think that would be beneficial, but it's very strongly
opposed by many members of Congress because of the involvement of
many Indonesian military personnel in human rights abuses in the
past. However, I'm of the view that if you want to improve
someone's behavior, you must try to train them. That if you
simply ignore them, its not going to help them improve their
behavior. Also, obviously, not everybody you train comes out as a
perfectly schooled officer who never does anything wrong.

In general, from my experience and from what I've been told by
people, including Bishop (Carlos Felipe Ximenes) Belo, officers
who are trained abroad treated people better than those who had
never had any experience outside of the country.