Violence not exclusive to Muslim society

Violence not exclusive to Muslim society

Chairman of Nahdlatul Ulama (NU) chairman, Hasyim Muzadi, had
a wide-ranging discussion, including on Islam and Christian
relations, at his home in Malang, East Java, with The Jakarta
Post's contributor Duncan Graham. The following is an excerpt
from the discussion.

Question: Three years ago you told this newspaper that terror
should be stopped. But since then there have been more bombings
and more people have been killed. What's going wrong?

Answer: I pushed the police to be brave enough to take action
against terrorism. NU can tell society that religion is not
violent, but if there is violence then the police must act
quickly. Now there's cooperation between NU and the police.

I have also told the American and the Australian ambassadors
for Indonesia that violence in the Middle East must decrease.
Otherwise more violence there will increase violence here.

The superpowers, like the U.S., along with other countries
should handle Middle East problems with wisdom, so terrorists do
not bring their anger to Indonesia.

But countries like America and Australia think Indonesia is a
terrorist country because you haven't banned Jamaah Islamiyah
(JI), and some claim Indonesia isn't taking terrorism seriously.

That is not true. JI in Indonesia is an underground movement.
So society doesn't know who JI is. That's known only by
intelligence agencies. JI must be arrested through intelligence
because it's impossible to be arrested by NU. NU doesn't know who
JI is.

Prosecuting terror through the courts takes a long time but
it's a safer process. All convicted terrorists should be
executed.

Terror, like the Marriott Hotel bombing, killed Indonesians,
not Westerners. The same thing happened with the Australian
Embassy bombing where Indonesians were the victims.

Many Westerners think that the reason the Indonesian
government does not ban JI is because they are frightened of
Muslim reaction. Do you agree?

Oh, no. All Muslims would support the government if they catch
terrorists -- but this must be according to law. NU and
Muhammadiyah all support the government if the government takes
serious action against terrorism.

Following the train bombing in Spain the population crowded
the streets. There were protests everywhere. That hasn't happened
in Indonesia. Why?

Because in Indonesia it's a terrorist movement. It's the
government's responsibility to arrest and prosecute them. That is
the problem. Countries that become the targets of terrorism have
joined with America in the war in the Middle East. Otherwise I
don't think they'd become a target.

You've been very strong in speaking out against terrorism but
is that message getting through to the pesantren, the villages,
the kampung, the mosques and prayer rooms?

I think that's in process. Coordination with all religious
leaders from headquarters down must be continuous and down to the
grassroots. That's necessary.

But isn't it taking a long time?

No, no. In East Java it took two years for Muslims to be
united with Christians after the church bombings in Situbondo (in
1996). I think in other places the process will take one or two
years because we're dealing with the problems of a society whose
understanding of the issues is still poor.

That's why we have agreements with other religious leaders so
they'll inform their congregations to not commit violence. It's
not exclusive to Muslims, it also involves Christians.

There are local beliefs and the respective leaders must be
responsible for passing information to the grassroots people.

There is still violence in Muslim society and there's violence
amongst Christians too.

What is your advice to Indonesian Christians living where the
majority are Muslims?

Every month I meet with the Cardinal and leaders of Christian
churches. I advise Christians to follow the Catholic way.
Catholics are quieter, more systematic, better educated. If
Pentecostals can follow their methods there's no reason for
ordinary people to fight.

But because the followers of Bethel and Jehovah go to Muslim
houses giving Bibles to Muslims, finally anger erupts, and the
churches are also angry.

The Catholics don't just build churches; they also provide
hospitals and schools. That's good. People who follow them do so
because they see the examples of the work of that faith.

So you think some Protestant churches have been immoderate?

Yes, a few of them -- Pentecostal, Methodist, Charismatics and
Jehovah Witnesses and some other sects in Indonesia. There are
more than 200 denominations but the PGI (Indonesian Communion of
Churches) can only control about 70. This means that 130 are out
of control. When something happens they report directly to the
West, to America, Geneva and Germany. This can make a small event
become a world problem.

Although only three churches had been closed at the time, when
I visited the Vatican people were saying that thousands of
churches had been closed.

How about the Ahmadiyah?

Ahmadiyah has been prohibited by the state since 1978.

Village people feel that the regulation is still as before so
there were attacks. But NU did not agree with the attacks because
they were violent. So I went to the police and asked them to stop
the attacks. If they can't handle it they should ask NU to stop
the attacks.

Do you think Indonesia is becoming more intolerant?

No, no. I said before if the police take speedy action and are
helped by mass organizations, violence can be stopped.

The factor here is not religious intolerance but politics. For
example, the Bali bomb which exploded last week was more about
politics and religion while the first bomb in 2002 was about
religious issues.

With the fuel price increases there were many riots. I'm
concerned that the police concluded too quickly that the issue
was about religion. Research first, then arrest and interrogate
them. Later on form conclusions. Then we can decide whether the
issue is religion or politics. The impact of a wrong statement
can be significant.