Violence not exclusive to Muslim society

Chairman of Nahdlatul Ulama (NU) chairman, Hasyim Muzadi, had a wide-ranging discussion, including on Islam and Christian relations, at his home in Malang, East Java, with The Jakarta Post's contributor Duncan Graham. The following is an excerpt from the discussion.

Question: Three years ago you told this newspaper that terror should be stopped. But since then there have been more bombings and more people have been killed. What's going wrong?

Answer: I pushed the police to be brave enough to take action against terrorism. NU can tell society that religion is not violent, but if there is violence then the police must act quickly. Now there's cooperation between NU and the police.

I have also told the American and the Australian ambassadors for Indonesia that violence in the Middle East must decrease. Otherwise more violence there will increase violence here.

The superpowers, like the U.S., along with other countries should handle Middle East problems with wisdom, so terrorists do not bring their anger to Indonesia.

But countries like America and Australia think Indonesia is a terrorist country because you haven't banned Jamaah Islamiyah (JI), and some claim Indonesia isn't taking terrorism seriously.

That is not true. JI in Indonesia is an underground movement. So society doesn't know who JI is. That's known only by intelligence agencies. JI must be arrested through intelligence because it's impossible to be arrested by NU. NU doesn't know who JI is.

Prosecuting terror through the courts takes a long time but it's a safer process. All convicted terrorists should be executed.

Terror, like the Marriott Hotel bombing, killed Indonesians, not Westerners. The same thing happened with the Australian Embassy bombing where Indonesians were the victims.

Many Westerners think that the reason the Indonesian government does not ban JI is because they are frightened of Muslim reaction. Do you agree?

Oh, no. All Muslims would support the government if they catch terrorists -- but this must be according to law. NU and Muhammadiyah all support the government if the government takes serious action against terrorism.

Following the train bombing in Spain the population crowded the streets. There were protests everywhere. That hasn't happened in Indonesia. Why?

Because in Indonesia it's a terrorist movement. It's the government's responsibility to arrest and prosecute them. That is the problem. Countries that become the targets of terrorism have joined with America in the war in the Middle East. Otherwise I don't think they'd become a target.

You've been very strong in speaking out against terrorism but is that message getting through to the pesantren, the villages, the kampung, the mosques and prayer rooms?

I think that's in process. Coordination with all religious leaders from headquarters down must be continuous and down to the grassroots. That's necessary.

But isn't it taking a long time?

No, no. In East Java it took two years for Muslims to be united with Christians after the church bombings in Situbondo (in 1996). I think in other places the process will take one or two years because we're dealing with the problems of a society whose understanding of the issues is still poor.

That's why we have agreements with other religious leaders so they'll inform their congregations to not commit violence. It's not exclusive to Muslims, it also involves Christians.

There are local beliefs and the respective leaders must be responsible for passing information to the grassroots people.

There is still violence in Muslim society and there's violence amongst Christians too.

What is your advice to Indonesian Christians living where the majority are Muslims?

Every month I meet with the Cardinal and leaders of Christian churches. I advise Christians to follow the Catholic way. Catholics are quieter, more systematic, better educated. If Pentecostals can follow their methods there's no reason for ordinary people to fight.

But because the followers of Bethel and Jehovah go to Muslim houses giving Bibles to Muslims, finally anger erupts, and the churches are also angry.

The Catholics don't just build churches; they also provide hospitals and schools. That's good. People who follow them do so because they see the examples of the work of that faith.

So you think some Protestant churches have been immoderate?

Yes, a few of them -- Pentecostal, Methodist, Charismatics and Jehovah Witnesses and some other sects in Indonesia. There are more than 200 denominations but the PGI (Indonesian Communion of Churches) can only control about 70. This means that 130 are out of control. When something happens they report directly to the West, to America, Geneva and Germany. This can make a small event become a world problem.

Although only three churches had been closed at the time, when I visited the Vatican people were saying that thousands of churches had been closed.

How about the Ahmadiyah?

Ahmadiyah has been prohibited by the state since 1978.

Village people feel that the regulation is still as before so there were attacks. But NU did not agree with the attacks because they were violent. So I went to the police and asked them to stop the attacks. If they can't handle it they should ask NU to stop the attacks.

Do you think Indonesia is becoming more intolerant?

No, no. I said before if the police take speedy action and are helped by mass organizations, violence can be stopped.

The factor here is not religious intolerance but politics. For example, the Bali bomb which exploded last week was more about politics and religion while the first bomb in 2002 was about religious issues.

With the fuel price increases there were many riots. I'm concerned that the police concluded too quickly that the issue was about religion. Research first, then arrest and interrogate them. Later on form conclusions. Then we can decide whether the issue is religion or politics. The impact of a wrong statement can be significant.