U.S. has stake in Indonesia's reform

The Jakarta Post, Jakarta

U.S. Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz was in Singapore to attend the Asia Security Conference, organized by the International Institute for Strategic Studies, last week. During an interview to the Associated Press and Reuters he talked at length about how he sees Indonesia's role in the fight against terrorism and the ongoing political reforms in the Indonesian Military.

Following is an excerpt of the interview, courtesy of the U.S. Embassy in Jakarta:

Question: Are you satisfied with the way Indonesia is tackling the fight against terrorism?

Answer: One of the things I really was trying to get across to this audience is to get those people who are not experts on Indonesia to appreciate the importance of Indonesia's moderate traditions of Islam as a potential example for the whole Muslim world. The Indonesians are kind of modest about themselves and don't go around blowing their own horn a lot.

That probably goes along with having a tolerant attitude and not a preachy attitude but I think it's a story that needs to get out more for two reasons.

First, for those non-Muslims who think of all Muslims as being fanatics, it's an eye opener to see how different the overwhelming majority of Indonesian Muslims are from that fanatic lineage. But secondly, more importantly for Muslims who may be tempted by the idea that the road to vindication is the road mapped by al Qaeda. Does he know that the largest Muslim population of any country in the world is a group of people really have a very very different toward religion, toward non- Muslims, toward women.

One reason why I believe the U.S. and other advanced countries have a big interest in seeing Indonesian democracy succeed and Indonesian economy start to grow again is that they have the world's largest Muslim population .. be a success story when it embodies those values of tolerance and openness and acceptance of an important role for women.

All of those -- it's nice to have Muslims think of those as qualities that are associated with success, so we should have an interest in seeing Indonesia succeed for that reason.

Q: Have you actually seen any progress in the reform of the Indonesian Military?

A: Some progress. There's no question there needs to be more. The conviction of the killer of the New Zealand peacekeeper was a good step. The increased sentences that were given to the Atambua killers is a good step. The trials that are on-going now are a good step although some appropriate concerns have been raised about whether the display of senior generals at the opening trial was an attempt to intimidate the result. I hope it's not. But, if slowly, I believe they are taking our concerns seriously. I do think there's a lot more to be done.

I also believe that it's time for us to make good on some of our willingness to help them move forward, not just keep criticizing and keep using the sticks. Moreover, I'd like to figure out ways in which we wouldn't always use as the means of expressing displeasure: Isolating the Indonesian military from contact with the West or the U.S. I know not every story of military education is a success story, but on the whole I think experience really does show that those officers who have had real contact with the U.S. are much more open in their outlook, much more accepting of the civilian control, much more supportive of democracy.

Q: What's preventing you from reestablishing the military ties? Is it purely Congress? Or are there -- other issues?

A: It's not purely Congress. We share a view with the Congress and with large elements of Indonesian civil society that for democracy to succeed in Indonesia the military has to be reformed. You can't have a successful democracy with a military that abuses its people. And the accountability for some of those crimes that were committed during the pre-democratic era is part of that military reform.

On the other hand, possibly you can't have a successful democracy in a country like Indonesia if you don't have military or security forces which includes the military police as well that can deal with the serious outbreaks of communal violence that produce refugees, produce opportunities for terrorists to burrow in. Moreover the military's an important institution. It's important for Megawati who is quite extraordinary democratically elected president to have the support of that key institution.

You have to balance all of those considerations and not just focus entirely on some horrendous things that were done a few years ago under the previous government, not under this democratic government. But we don't want to just wipe the slate clean and forget about how we go forward.

Q: Do you share with the view that Indonesia is a weak link in the regional campaign against international terrorism?

A: I certainly wouldn't use that term. It is a critical country in this respect. It's a critical country in just its huge size, and if Indonesia were to go bad it would be spectacularly bad. I also believe that if Indonesia succeeds, it can be a very important model for the rest of the Muslim world. The truth is I don't believe we've detected or are aware of anything in Indonesia of the scale for example, of the plot that was uncovered in Singapore where al Qaeda people were planning a kind of repeat of the USS Cole attack in Yemen.

The problems in Indonesia are much more internally directed; Laskar Jihad which is not an international terrorist organization but is responsible for some serious incidents of communal violence, and on that score the Indonesian government has arrested the head of Laskar Jihad. Each of these countries has very different circumstances and very different governments. Indonesia is a wide open democracy which is another factor that has to be taken into account.

Generally speaking a good factor, but as we know in our own country it means that civil liberties issues come up when you deal with these things.

FBI director Muller was there a month or two ago and expressed satisfaction of the progress they (Indonesia) were making then and I believe there has been more since then.

Q: Have you found evidence any international terrorism operations emanating from Indonesia?

A: There are suspicions about one or two individuals, and there are suspicions that there may be other people whom we don't know about, but you know of course that's true of Germany and the U.S. We're pretty sure there are people in the U.S. that we don't know about. That's why the real issue isn't quite as much as are there people there who need to be arrested as our Indonesian law enforcement people doing, as much as they can to gather information, to gather evidence, to develop that picture. We're working to improve ourselves. The Indonesians are coming along and the co-operation is really very good. Both with the FBI and the CIA.