'This is not poverty, but a process of impoverishment'

In recent weeks, there has been much talk about efforts to eradicate poverty. The Jakarta Post's Hera Diani talked to H.S. Dillon, executive director of the Partnership for Governance Reform in Indonesia, about poverty eradication and the effectiveness of running programs.

Question: There have been so many poverty eradication programs, but few seem to work.

Answer: We have the G-8 (Group of Eight) wealthy nations, the United Nations Millennium Development Goals (MDGs). They are very good statements of intent, but without the real means required to achieve them.

We have to realize that this is not poverty, but impoverishment. Because, as you realize, hunger and serial malnutrition occur among people who are actually involved in the production of food. So something must be very wrong.

You have to begin by establishing governance at various levels. The most important thing in our case, however, is access to productive resources.

What you see now, with MDGs, the World Bank (etcetera) is the conservative or the pro-status-quo discussion of what needs to be done. There's talk about empowerment and access to service ... but there's no talk about political economy -- on who has the power -- nor are there plans to redistribute assets.

The essence is that you have to really arrest and then reverse the cause of impoverishment.

Aside from land, access to productivity and the quality of credit is important, not just the interest rate, but the quality. It's tragic that in Indonesia, the conglomerates are those who have no money but were given so much money by the state banks.

While the poor, every year, Bank Rakyat Indonesia mobilizes -- maybe more now -- around Rp 30 trillion for various saving schemes. But only Rp 10 trillion is reinvested into agriculture.

It means, directly, they have extracted half of the bank power, half of the value generated by agriculture. And then Rp 10 trillion does not go to the small farmers or the labors, it goes to the conglomerates again.

Technology is also a very important ingredient. Not just an instrument, or machinery, but an organizational (tool). How do people get to work, organize themselves -- how are their demands met?

The current problem is, the President is committed, but not supported by the government. And he has no political capacity, he cannot push that through.

What breakthroughs are needed?

How you really arrest and reverse the process of impoverishment. Poverty is not just an event, or phenomena, but a process.

I don't see a very clear vision from the government itself. Based on my paradigm, (poverty eradication programs) should be people-driven: All the policies formulated, all the institutions established, all the technologies developed and transferred have to be driven by the needs and capacities of the people.

Poor people have the capacity, actually. You just develop a ladder, and with their own capacity and strength, they will climb that ladder.

And how do we do that?

First, conception -- not birth -- should be controlled. Because no matter how good your resources and government may be, if you have too many people vying for the same resources, you have less to distribute.

Second, adequate food and nutrition. In the process of generating enough food, the income of farmers and laborers will increase and they will be able to buy food.

Third, an education system that addresses local needs. At each junction of their education, students must be able to cari makan (make a living). We have to change the whole mentality of cari kerja (looking for a job). In the process of cari makan, you can create jobs.

For poor parents, children have economic value and school only removes that value. You have to compensate them. Like in Brazil, the government pays parents when their children perform well. And it works in keeping children in school.

In coastal villages, you have to come with an agreement with local schools so that children do not have to go six days a week. Compress the curriculum into just one-and-a-half months instead of six months. Distribute waterproof books so that children can still read while out at sea.

Education must also allow students to interact with mother nature, so they will grow up with an awareness of environmental conservation, which requires self interest.

In regards to Presidential Regulation No. 36/2005 on land (which allows the government to seize land for public development projects), should the government revoke it?

The regulation looks good on paper but it creates opportunities for abuse in its implementation. You have to really define what you are building in the public interest. If it is for a road, okay, but not a mall.

What the President has to do is to change his goals. He is a very good man, but he has to realize that people trust him, but not his government. He listens too much to political parties, which comes as a shock to me because none of those parties supported him in the first place.

He has gained the trust of the people, of the international community ... He has to have goals of his own so that he can transpose the trust in him into trust for the government.

Pick officials from politicians who have shown their interest in the people, not the ones who were referred by political parties.

People think the poor and uneducated are foolish. What they fail to realize is that poor people can distinguish between what is right and what is wrong. That's why (former president) Megawati Soekarnoputri failed because she could not deliver. Therefore you have to win the trust.