Swiss minister: Transparency, guts necessary to fight corruption

A group of journalists from Indonesia, Malaysia and Vietnam, including Riyadi Suparno of The Jakarta Post, visited Switzerland recently at the invitation of the Swiss government. One of the functions of the visit was to meet with government officials, including Pascal Couchepin, federal councillor and head of the Federal Department of Home Affairs. The following is an excerpt of an interview with Couchepin.

Question: According to Transparency International, Switzerland is one of the world's least corrupt countries. But, how do you regard yourself in terms of corruption?

I've been in politics for almost 40 years now. With the exception of two persons whom I consider as corrupt, I have never met somebody who is financially corrupt. If I can find corruption in Switzerland, it's not about money, but (rather about) friendship or favoritism, with political reasons. You help somebody who has the same political line as you, but no money is involved.

I know my people are honest. If they are not, and commit corruption, there must be somebody who will come to me and tell me about it.

How do you manage a government relatively free of corruption? What can you suggest to corrupt countries like Indonesia to eradicate corruption?

Corruption always appears in so many discussions I have had with dignitaries such as James Wolfensohn, former World Bank president. In every of those discussions, I always began with a small story. In the beginning of the 19th century, when there was a huge flood in Switzerland, the tsar of Russia sent hundreds of thousands of gold rubles to the poor parts of Switzerland and warned them to be very careful in the distribution of money. This was so because they were very corrupt.

And to think that the Russian emperor wanted to eradicate corruption in Switzerland is something extraordinary today. So, what happened? I'm convinced that it's all about democracy. If there is transparency, if the media can report things as they are -- but you must not exaggerate things and you must not support crazy people -- I'm convinced you can (eradicate corruption).

I remember when I was young, I lived near the Swiss-Italian border. When I was a soldier, I remember a time when we had to stop shooting exercises at 5 p.m. to let smugglers cross the border. They sold Swiss cigarettes to Italy because the taxes over there were very high. Why did they do that? It's because they knew Italian officers were poor and little paid, and they were not on duty at 5 p.m., and they would have returned by 8 p.m. and nothing had happened. It was well known that they could not survive if they could not get some (additional) money. They had children, and so on... But Italy now I think has less corruption than in the past because the civil servants are better paid.

So, in addition to transparency, you need a smaller administration with better pay. Look at Singapore, there is no corruption. But even a minister in Singapore is better paid than we are. So, they are fantastically well paid. And you see no corruption.

Does it mean that eradicating corruption has so much to do with better salary?

Yes, it's about salary, transparency, and culture of governing. But do not exaggerate the culture because Switzerland did not have this kind of clean culture 200 years ago.

And actually, besides those things, the state must be able to function. I read in an article somewhere about corruption in Russia, where corruption has become institutionalized. If corruption is well organized that everybody knows how much to pay for this and that, this is the start of a state failure, and this is dangerous.

Also, during the communist time in Poland, there was a saying, "if you don't steal from the state, you must be stealing from your family."

If a corrupt officer can come to you and ask you certain amount of money for, say, a protection service, it's dangerous. If you can bypass (a rule) by paying US$15 to an officer, it is better than going to the office and not getting anything. If they start asking everybody the same amount of money for the same service, it's become public service.

You can stop it by making it legal as a public service. So, you can stop it only if at least there is a rule, and you all respect it.

What about gifts or bribery? How do you handle this issue?

Let say, if people are happy with your service, and give you 1,000 Swiss francs (US$780), you must put it in a special book... The rule is you can accept a gift of between 300 and 500 Swiss francs. If it's more than that, you have to give it to the state... The rule of thumb is that there is no corruption if you accept the gift and eat it for one day. But, if you cannot finish it for one-day meals, it's corruption.

Once, I got a gift from (Italian Prime Minister Silvio) Berlusconi. It was worth more than 500 Swiss francs. I reported this to the Cabinet, and told them "Look I got a gift from Mr. Berlusconi, it's worth more than 500 Swiss francs, do you allow me to keep it?" They said, "Alright, yes." Then, I donated the gift to a church. So, you must tell members of the Cabinet or the government.

Last year, I went to Qatar. When I left, a sheikh there gave me a medal, a gold medal, worth 2,000 Swiss francs. I said, "Sorry I must give this to the government." The day after I left, somebody brought me a plastic bag, he said, "This is a gift from the sheikh." I looked at that, it was 12 gold medals, each worth 2,000 Swiss frank. Extraordinary. I told all members of the Cabinet, "Look, I got these gifts, could I give them to a city where I was a mayor." They said okay. But two months later, I read in a newspaper, that this sheikh was under house arrest because he bought antique artifacts from a Qatar museum. If I did not report that to the government, I would likely be in trouble.

So, in government, you must be free of corruption. Otherwise, people will attack you.

Do you know about Indonesia? Indonesia now has a president who is relatively committed to fighting corruption. Do you have any comment?

But we all make commitments. You still need the guts, the guts to confront the corruptors...

Don't ask too much of your president. Ask him to improve the system. Don't ask him to be perfect in one day because it takes time. But in four years, we must see progress. Tell him, we support you in this endeavor.