RI people must be productive to thrive: Pramoedya

Amid festivities to mark the country's 59th Independence Day, internationally renowned author Pramoedya Ananta Toer talked with The Jakarta Post's Kornelius Purba on Saturday about the country's problems in facing its future. The following is an excerpt of the interview.

Question: With the current civilian administration, don't you agree that people have more freedom now, compared to life under the administrations of Soeharto and Sukarno?

Answer: When you are talking about formal freedom, you are right. But you have to see the real problems confronting Indonesia. Indonesians have a consumptive mentality. The consumptive frame of mind is very strong, which causes our nation to be left behind by other productive nations. We swallow everything, including the name of Indonesia. Geographically, actually the name of our country is nusantara or dipantara. But we use the name of Indonesia? Why? Because we are consumptive. Until now, even for simple terms, we much prefer to use English words. If we continue to have such a mentality, wherever Indonesian workers are sent abroad they can only become servants.

How does that happen?

Because we are not productive. Only productive people can have a strong character. We do not have a character, because character is developed by a productive working habit. It is strange that productive people -- farmers -- are even oppressed. This is ridiculous. They are sucked (dry). During harvest time, the government imports agricultural products and smuggling is rampant. Prices then fall. Once -- which lasted until a few decades after our independence in 1945 -- Indonesia was the largest exporter of rice and sugar. Cuba then assumed our position in producing sugar. Now we have become an importer of the products, and what's worse, many of them are smuggled in. Practically, we do not have an agricultural policy.

Can you see any reason for optimism?

I can only see the development from a distance, because I don't feel I am involved. We are left behind in all aspects of life. If you travel from Jakarta to Bogor (not through the toll road), you will see beggars along the streets. Our children are trained to be beggars. In the rural areas, small children are educated in production activities.

People in urban areas are consumptive. Beggars have an extraordinary method. They put drums in the middle of the streets. It is amazing that officials in charge of traffic regulation do not take any action to stop them. Roads are used by vendors. The high number of traders shows that our production system does not work. When our production is abundant, trading will be better organized. When you travel from here to Surabaya, you will see warung (small shops or food stalls) along the way. It proves how unproductive we are.

Can you envision the revival of the people's economy?.

Of course, it is possible. When you look at our history, since the start of the last century, big changes were always initiated by youth forces, and the peak was during the Youth Pledge in 1928. Our national independence revolution and the toppling of Soeharto in 1998 was carried out by youths. Sukarno was toppled (in 1967) by the military and they just used youths as their tools.

The problem is that our young generation does not produce new leaders after doing so many things for the nation. There is a vacuum of young generation leadership. We suffer big problems because of this difficulty.

Our nation often prides itself on being a religious nation. Why is this not reflected in daily life?

Religion is about relations between human beings and God -- and not with the world. Don't forget, many people commit corruption, and some of it (the money) is donated to build worship buildings. Beggars are deployed to the streets. How to control it? As long as Indonesian families do not educate their members to be productive, our situation will remain the same. Here, officials who have been declared guilty by the court are still free to keep their positions.

How about the condition of our education system?

Entering elementary school, junior high school and senior high school people have to face corruption and extortion. Coercion is not acceptable -- but no one feels they have been coerced. It is regarded as a normal practice. This is unbelievable.

How do you perceive the current attitude of the Indonesian Military (TNI)?

Now they are rather under control and can be put under control. Before this they were so wild, with no limit. I suffered much from the military. I myself was a former military member during the independence revolution, from a low ranking soldier I became a second lieutenant. The military used to be uncontrollable, because they thought they had mightier power than ordinary citizens. Now they are controlled by the House of Representatives/People's Consultative Assembly and other institutions. There is control, even people and the press are rising up to resist military power. It is strange that Indonesia, as an archipelago, is dominated by the Army.

Do you think that military power will reemerge?

No way, because day by day people's democratic consciousness is further developing. Do not forget that groups in society will not hesitate to demonstrate against the military. It is very encouraging and pleasing.

How about democracy here, because we have adopted direct elections?

We are on the right track in the process of democracy, but do not forget that our bureaucracy has become a nest of corruption.

Did you vote in the legislative election and presidential election?

No, because I do not know anything about the achievements of the candidates. What are their national and international accomplishments? What can I rely on when they have not accomplished anything. Sorry, I do not mean to belittle current developments, but we also have to make judgments based on reality.

How about gender issues?

All the problems we are facing are caused by the failure of men to educate their family members. And it is women who must bear the (cost of that) failure. I think women should lead the family now. It is true that now our President is a woman. But our social structure is still different. Our society is dominated by men. When women dominate the society, perhaps it will be difficult for women to find their ... (bursts into laughter)

What about international perceptions of us?

We are regarded as a sick nation in Southeast Asia. The motherland is very rich but its people are impoverished. It is a maritime state but the power is dominated by land. Thefts at sea by international vessels are rampant. Nearly 2,000 islands are still unnamed. We need a leader who understand our geographic nature. There is no leader who pays attention to geography. When Anak (child) Krakatau volcano appeared, which was then followed by the cucu (grandchild) Krakatau, no attention was given, whereas the eruption of Krakatau two centuries ago really was shocking.