RI looks into illegal logging, debt swap for nature

RI looks into illegal logging, debt swap for nature

Indonesia is sending at least three ministers to the fourth
preparatory committee meeting for World Summit on sustainable
development in Bali. The delegation will be led by Coordinating
Minister for Economy Dorodjatun Kuntjoro-Jakti, with State
Minister of Environment Nabiel Makarim and Foreign Minister
Hassan Wirayuda as delegates. The Jakarta Post interviewed Nabiel
and Hassan to get a glimpse of Indonesia's goals in the upcoming
series of meetings.

NABIEL MAKARIM

What will be presented as the main agenda in the preparatory
committee meeting in Bali?

In preparing for the substantial material, anybody could give
ideas so that there are many issues to consider.

There are so many inputs, it is in our best interest to get
them into focus. Only the important issues will be considered and
we will try to avoid controversial ones.

We will not pursue the Kyoto Protocol, for example, because
the United States will never agree to it and there would be a big
argument over it. In the end, the cooperation that we are hoping
for will be jeopardized. It would be better if, for now, we build
trust and cooperation with the issues that we all believe in, and
discuss the Kyoto Protocol at a later time.

In giving focus, we also need to choose strategic issues that
could become a momentum for cooperation to work, for example
poverty alleviation, the financing of sustainable development,
changing the pattern of production and consumption, good
governance, environmental conservation and civil society.

Those are neutral subjects and we must start from those.
What will the government of Indonesia push for in this meeting?

The first three issues are important to us, with global
perspective. There is also one thing that concerns Indonesia most
that we must push forward, which is illegal logging.

We will ask other countries to check the logs they buy and not
buy those without official papers. Because as long as people do
not question whether the wood used for chairs are stolen or not,
illegal logging will never be eradicated.

For problems (like this), it's important to not only act from
the supply side but also from the demand side. We could do
everything possible in Indonesia but as long as there is demand,
illegal logging will continue.

Yes, there's ecolabeling, but not enough countries are doing
it. It has to be strengthened.
What about the Debt for Nature Swap (DNS) scheme, are we going to
push for it, too?

In principle, the scheme works like this: If Indonesia owes
US$100 to the United States, the U.S. could say that we could pay
only $50 while the other half is put into the DNS program. From
that $50 saved, we would be required to put into environmental
efforts such as replanting trees.

After sustainable development, the DNS is changed to just debt
swap, full stop, meaning that it is not only for nature but also
open to education, or other concerns. This will be further
discussed during the Prepcom meeting where we will figure out how
we will finance sustainable development.
Are there any countries that we have agreed to do a debt swap
with?

Yes, we have reached an agreement with Germany for education,
it's now left for us to implement it. The value is about $50
million. The value is not necessarily huge, if you look at the
total debt, but it will greatly lighten the load of the state
budget.

Other countries have also expressed interest for a debt swap
with us, such as the U.S. and other European countries. What
happened with us was this; the program was initiated at the time
of (former president) B.J. Habibie and before an agreement could
be finalized there was a change in government. This has happened
several times. Let's hope that now we will have time to finalize
this.
Are there any other trade-off schemes besides debt swaps?

Another scheme for trade is what is called carbon trade. If a
company in a developed country has not yet achieved an accepted
level of carbon emissions, the company would be obliged by its
government to pay for tree planting in developed countries, as
many as it needs, for the remaining emissions to be absorbed.

This (scheme) will be a bit time-consuming to implement
because there is no agreement yet in terms of pricing, or how
many trees it takes for an amount of carbon to be absorbed.

This is important for us, if it works well then there will be
an incentive for regional administrations to preserve their
forests. The situation now is that regencies want to cut down
trees for the money, but if unharmed trees have a value, then it
is more profitable not to cut them down.

The third scheme is to include the participation of
businesses. If the government has 2,000 hectares of empty land,
companies could finance the planting of trees and in return we
could grant the company's name to the forest. Nokia forest, for
example, isn't a bad idea, right?
How does Indonesia, as a host country anticipate the insertion of
terrorism issues, especially to divert attention from the Kyoto
Protocol

There will always be diversions, but we will try to keep it
focused. But it also depends on how well the U.S. can influence
other countries, because it is a strong country. If that happens
obviously we cannot walk out. If that's the general consensus
then what can we do, but quietly object to it.

We don't want to get stuck in political issues outside our
focus on this. There will always be efforts to divert attention,
and they take many forms, for example from the anti-globalization
groups that will maybe launch a demonstration.
Sustainable development has so far lost out to the World Trade
Organization (WTO) that is backed by powerful countries, how
could we counter this?

In general the problem of money is more interesting. But we
must also see the trend, and the trend for environmental issues
are increasing. It's possible that in 10 years time this will
become even bigger than WTO.

Especially for Indonesia, we are already effected directly by
the destruction of the environment, the recent floods for
example. The effects are immediate, cut down tress then flooding
will occur.

What's happening is that the impacts of the destruction of the
environment around the world are increasing. People feel this,
they fear it, and so it becomes important.

Losing out to WTO is okay as long as this also works. If
sustainable development becomes more important but
(implementation is) ineffective then it is useless.
Effectiveness is what's important, the cooperation.

International trade will, of course, be discussed, illegal
logging is a form of trade too, trade of illegal logs.

HASSAN WIRAYUDA

What do you expect from the preparatory committee Meeting in
Bali?

The coming preparatory meeting will produce three main
agreements. They are, a plan of action, a political declaration
and initiatives for partnership.

The plan of action is scheduled to be finished in Bali, while
the political declaration will be further finalized in the
upcoming summit in Johannesburg.

We also expect to finalize 73 initiatives for partnership that
will be the concrete measures of the meeting's results.

As the host, we will lead discussions and definitely influence
the three products.

The political declaration will be an important issue as
learning from the past experience of the Rio Summit, we need
political commitment to ensure the implementation of the plan of
action.

However, we fully understand that even in the sustainable
development conference many political agendas of third world
countries, such as foreign occupation, will enter the discussion
and it will be discussed.

The process to decide the four pages of political declarations
will be much more difficult than the other agreements.

Could you explain more on the political declaration

This will not be a discussion on real politics, but to garner
political commitments from all heads of state and heads of
government to implement the plan of action.

Although we are talking about sustainable development there
are always reasons to bring political issues like the Palestinian
cause, India and Kashmir, etc.

Those countries will say that it will be impossible for us to
achieve sustainable development because of war or foreign
occupation.

They will ask, 'how can we avoid poverty when we are still
under those pressures?'

How can you ensure the implementation of the plan of action

The plan of action should be a balanced approach that will not
make some countries allergic to sustainable development. It
should be both idealistic and realistic, unlike the one we
achieved in Rio.

It should also appear in the initiatives for partnerships as
we will go directly to each project that can be achieved through
bilateral and multilateral approaches.

The commitment will not just include traditional players like
the foreign ministry or foreign economic relations, but include
all major stake holders like local government, business community
and civil society.

It is easy for each signatory to cheat on the agreement and it
has happened for the past ten years. There is discrepancy between
the awareness and commitment and in the coming meeting we have to
deal with it.

It will be a very difficult process because we are up against
the strong countries that control 85 percent of economic power.
That is why we have to empower ourselves and be committed to the
rules.

What will are some of the benefits that Indonesia can expect from
this meeting

We serve as a good example of a country that has implemented
unsustainable development. After enjoying an average of 7 to 8
percent growth per year in more then 30 years, our economy
suddenly fell by 21 percent, and we suffered greatly.

The sudden drop in economic growth is not just because of our
own failure to have good governance and democracy, but also
because of inadequate infrastructure.

Debt is a very important issue and it concerns us most. In the
meeting we will discuss better ways of financing sustainable
development. How to get the commitment from developed countries
to increase financial aid.

In many poor and indebted countries, there are reversed
capital flows and mounting debts, just like what happens in our
country.

There are a lot of creative proposals to handle such matters,
not just by debt cuts or eradication, but also debt swaps, like
debt for nature, debt for forest, debt for poor.

As a concept, we are still studying the possibility because
there is an inability of many countries to deal with their debts
and a swap could be one of the ways to deal with it.

The Foreign Ministry will have to ensure that our colleagues
in the government understand the importance of this meeting.

Despite our internal weaknesses, we could point out that there
are an inadequate number of international financial architects.

Many developed countries would say that they are tired of
giving money as it's being taken by corrupt countries, but we can
also say that what we need is direct foreign investment and not a
huge flow of money that could further destabilize our country.

While at the same time we should conduct domestic reform and
ensure good governance.