RI looks into illegal logging, debt swap for nature

Indonesia is sending at least three ministers to the fourth preparatory committee meeting for World Summit on sustainable development in Bali. The delegation will be led by Coordinating Minister for Economy Dorodjatun Kuntjoro-Jakti, with State Minister of Environment Nabiel Makarim and Foreign Minister Hassan Wirayuda as delegates. The Jakarta Post interviewed Nabiel and Hassan to get a glimpse of Indonesia's goals in the upcoming series of meetings.

NABIEL MAKARIM

What will be presented as the main agenda in the preparatory committee meeting in Bali?

In preparing for the substantial material, anybody could give ideas so that there are many issues to consider.

There are so many inputs, it is in our best interest to get them into focus. Only the important issues will be considered and we will try to avoid controversial ones.

We will not pursue the Kyoto Protocol, for example, because the United States will never agree to it and there would be a big argument over it. In the end, the cooperation that we are hoping for will be jeopardized. It would be better if, for now, we build trust and cooperation with the issues that we all believe in, and discuss the Kyoto Protocol at a later time.

In giving focus, we also need to choose strategic issues that could become a momentum for cooperation to work, for example poverty alleviation, the financing of sustainable development, changing the pattern of production and consumption, good governance, environmental conservation and civil society.

Those are neutral subjects and we must start from those. What will the government of Indonesia push for in this meeting?

The first three issues are important to us, with global perspective. There is also one thing that concerns Indonesia most that we must push forward, which is illegal logging.

We will ask other countries to check the logs they buy and not buy those without official papers. Because as long as people do not question whether the wood used for chairs are stolen or not, illegal logging will never be eradicated.

For problems (like this), it's important to not only act from the supply side but also from the demand side. We could do everything possible in Indonesia but as long as there is demand, illegal logging will continue.

Yes, there's ecolabeling, but not enough countries are doing it. It has to be strengthened. What about the Debt for Nature Swap (DNS) scheme, are we going to push for it, too?

In principle, the scheme works like this: If Indonesia owes US$100 to the United States, the U.S. could say that we could pay only $50 while the other half is put into the DNS program. From that $50 saved, we would be required to put into environmental efforts such as replanting trees.

After sustainable development, the DNS is changed to just debt swap, full stop, meaning that it is not only for nature but also open to education, or other concerns. This will be further discussed during the Prepcom meeting where we will figure out how we will finance sustainable development. Are there any countries that we have agreed to do a debt swap with?

Yes, we have reached an agreement with Germany for education, it's now left for us to implement it. The value is about $50 million. The value is not necessarily huge, if you look at the total debt, but it will greatly lighten the load of the state budget.

Other countries have also expressed interest for a debt swap with us, such as the U.S. and other European countries. What happened with us was this; the program was initiated at the time of (former president) B.J. Habibie and before an agreement could be finalized there was a change in government. This has happened several times. Let's hope that now we will have time to finalize this. Are there any other trade-off schemes besides debt swaps?

Another scheme for trade is what is called carbon trade. If a company in a developed country has not yet achieved an accepted level of carbon emissions, the company would be obliged by its government to pay for tree planting in developed countries, as many as it needs, for the remaining emissions to be absorbed.

This (scheme) will be a bit time-consuming to implement because there is no agreement yet in terms of pricing, or how many trees it takes for an amount of carbon to be absorbed.

This is important for us, if it works well then there will be an incentive for regional administrations to preserve their forests. The situation now is that regencies want to cut down trees for the money, but if unharmed trees have a value, then it is more profitable not to cut them down.

The third scheme is to include the participation of businesses. If the government has 2,000 hectares of empty land, companies could finance the planting of trees and in return we could grant the company's name to the forest. Nokia forest, for example, isn't a bad idea, right? How does Indonesia, as a host country anticipate the insertion of terrorism issues, especially to divert attention from the Kyoto Protocol

There will always be diversions, but we will try to keep it focused. But it also depends on how well the U.S. can influence other countries, because it is a strong country. If that happens obviously we cannot walk out. If that's the general consensus then what can we do, but quietly object to it.

We don't want to get stuck in political issues outside our focus on this. There will always be efforts to divert attention, and they take many forms, for example from the anti-globalization groups that will maybe launch a demonstration. Sustainable development has so far lost out to the World Trade Organization (WTO) that is backed by powerful countries, how could we counter this?

In general the problem of money is more interesting. But we must also see the trend, and the trend for environmental issues are increasing. It's possible that in 10 years time this will become even bigger than WTO.

Especially for Indonesia, we are already effected directly by the destruction of the environment, the recent floods for example. The effects are immediate, cut down tress then flooding will occur.

What's happening is that the impacts of the destruction of the environment around the world are increasing. People feel this, they fear it, and so it becomes important.

Losing out to WTO is okay as long as this also works. If sustainable development becomes more important but (implementation is) ineffective then it is useless. Effectiveness is what's important, the cooperation.

International trade will, of course, be discussed, illegal logging is a form of trade too, trade of illegal logs.

HASSAN WIRAYUDA

What do you expect from the preparatory committee Meeting in Bali?

The coming preparatory meeting will produce three main agreements. They are, a plan of action, a political declaration and initiatives for partnership.

The plan of action is scheduled to be finished in Bali, while the political declaration will be further finalized in the upcoming summit in Johannesburg.

We also expect to finalize 73 initiatives for partnership that will be the concrete measures of the meeting's results.

As the host, we will lead discussions and definitely influence the three products.

The political declaration will be an important issue as learning from the past experience of the Rio Summit, we need political commitment to ensure the implementation of the plan of action.

However, we fully understand that even in the sustainable development conference many political agendas of third world countries, such as foreign occupation, will enter the discussion and it will be discussed.

The process to decide the four pages of political declarations will be much more difficult than the other agreements.

Could you explain more on the political declaration

This will not be a discussion on real politics, but to garner political commitments from all heads of state and heads of government to implement the plan of action.

Although we are talking about sustainable development there are always reasons to bring political issues like the Palestinian cause, India and Kashmir, etc.

Those countries will say that it will be impossible for us to achieve sustainable development because of war or foreign occupation.

They will ask, 'how can we avoid poverty when we are still under those pressures?'

How can you ensure the implementation of the plan of action

The plan of action should be a balanced approach that will not make some countries allergic to sustainable development. It should be both idealistic and realistic, unlike the one we achieved in Rio.

It should also appear in the initiatives for partnerships as we will go directly to each project that can be achieved through bilateral and multilateral approaches.

The commitment will not just include traditional players like the foreign ministry or foreign economic relations, but include all major stake holders like local government, business community and civil society.

It is easy for each signatory to cheat on the agreement and it has happened for the past ten years. There is discrepancy between the awareness and commitment and in the coming meeting we have to deal with it.

It will be a very difficult process because we are up against the strong countries that control 85 percent of economic power. That is why we have to empower ourselves and be committed to the rules.

What will are some of the benefits that Indonesia can expect from this meeting

We serve as a good example of a country that has implemented unsustainable development. After enjoying an average of 7 to 8 percent growth per year in more then 30 years, our economy suddenly fell by 21 percent, and we suffered greatly.

The sudden drop in economic growth is not just because of our own failure to have good governance and democracy, but also because of inadequate infrastructure.

Debt is a very important issue and it concerns us most. In the meeting we will discuss better ways of financing sustainable development. How to get the commitment from developed countries to increase financial aid.

In many poor and indebted countries, there are reversed capital flows and mounting debts, just like what happens in our country.

There are a lot of creative proposals to handle such matters, not just by debt cuts or eradication, but also debt swaps, like debt for nature, debt for forest, debt for poor.

As a concept, we are still studying the possibility because there is an inability of many countries to deal with their debts and a swap could be one of the ways to deal with it.

The Foreign Ministry will have to ensure that our colleagues in the government understand the importance of this meeting.

Despite our internal weaknesses, we could point out that there are an inadequate number of international financial architects.

Many developed countries would say that they are tired of giving money as it's being taken by corrupt countries, but we can also say that what we need is direct foreign investment and not a huge flow of money that could further destabilize our country.

While at the same time we should conduct domestic reform and ensure good governance.