New government must tackle roots of restlessness

With the presidential and vice presidential elections completed, the country enters a new phase amid much societal friction. After meeting with President Abdurrahman Wahid, popularly known as Gus Dur, influential Muslim scholar and poet Mustofa Bisri, a leader of Nahdlatul Ulama (NU) and the National Awakening Party (PKB), discussed the country's future with The Jakarta Post. The following are excerpts from the interview.

Question: What do you see as the priorities of President Abdurrahman Wahid?

Answer: Quieting things down; making everyone feel looked after. All the things contributing to the restlessness must be handled, like corruption, collusion and nepotism -- which has long been the demand of the people.

But the most urgent thing for all of us in the near future is the creation of a conducive climate to let the government carry out its mandate as stipulated in the State Policy Guidelines.

There is still friction within the Muslim community, and we are still dependent on old forces like Golkar. How does the much cited need to empower civil society fare in such a situation?

(Those causing such polarizations) are just the elite. Ordinary people know precisely which of the elite have been inconsistent in their speech and actions -- people's emotions are also raised and this is an emotional time. Leaders must seriously pay attention to current emotions ... There are always some people who keep fanning the flames and the press sometimes plays a part in this. This is childish politics, using religious beliefs.

Your party preaches inclusiveness. Is the country ready for such a platform?

No one among us is really prepared for democracy. We have never been educated about accepting differences. We've been raised for decades to be uniform and this, of course, makes democracy difficult. We have yet to learn how to practice civilized politics.

So how should the country go about empowering civil society?

We have been shouting about reform while neglecting to reform ourselves. Much of our behavior is just the same as our inability to accept differences and our insistence on protecting group interests; these are all old diseases. We need a mental revolution .... Most of our role models teach us corruption, how to love material things too much and that's what we absorb. We have too few role models for noble values and such values have become marginalized.

What does Abdurrahman's presidency mean to NU?

As we earlier stated, NU's inseparable commitments are to uphold democracy, while maintaining the welfare of the nation. Power is only a way to reach this aim. NU's guidelines clearly state this. From its birth (in 1926), NU has always wanted to actively join others in the nation in the struggle for freedom. Gus Dur's efforts, including becoming President, are seen as part of this framework, and it contains great risks. It would not mean anything if it was not within the above framework.

None of (the leaders) of NU have congratulated Gus Dur. Congratulations are when you get a gift. All of us say, "May God give you strength" to carry out this heavy mandate. NU feels this burden too and there will be many mass prayers. NU members and PKB may feel proud (of Gus Dur being president), but not the kyai (religious leaders/teachers).

Is there the possibility of you becoming a minister in Abdurrahman's Cabinet?

I told Gus Dur this morning that he should select people based on merit. Don't pick someone just because he's a kyai from NU and then ask him to build bridges ....

The 'reformist' and 'status quo' camps have now become blurred ...

However far someone has deviated, nothing is final ... people can change to become better or worse. I think reform means focusing more on the system which has led to bad behavior. What, for instance, causes corruption? If the system or rules allow corruption it will continue, even if you replace the individuals. We should do discard our prejudices .... We quickly label individuals as being just like Soeharto, for example, just because they were his former assistants. People can repent, but the problem is we have not carried out the demands of reform; to thoroughly investigate charges of corruption, collusion and nepotism (KKK).

So we can't say for sure what role so-and-so played under a corrupt government. With an investigation and clean courts we would know how a person was involved.

This is what causes the current blur -- because investigations of KKN have not been carried out.

Would this mean prosecuting such cases in court rather than simply forgiving them would be part of the reconciliation effort?

Of course, or else there would be no clarity on what to forgive if people asked for forgiveness.

The Indonesian Military (TNI) has said the public should not continue to make demands of them because they are reforming themselves. What do you think?

We should place our trust in their good intentions. TNI used to be a tool of the rulers and they have said this will not be the case anymore. But we will also ask for evidence so people will believe their words.

The reason for (B.J.) Habibie's fall was because of the lack of evidence to prove his statement of being a reformist.

Despite TNI Commander Gen. Wiranto's expressed reluctance to run for vice president, he was nominated by civilians who feared Megawati Soekarnoputri would be unable to complement an ailing President.

The country is not owned by the president alone like in the past; the president can be reprimanded any time. We tend to forget that everyone has responsibilities ... in accordance to one's skills.

You sound optimistic about the future.

Yes, the People's Consultative Assembly will convene once a year and the House of Representatives is not what it used to be. We can hope for continued control.

With Abdurrahman as President, who will likely replace him as NU chairman at NU's congress next month?

We have lots of good people, but in the tradition of NU nobody will volunteer himself for the position ... What is important is what NU wants to do in the future. All this time we have been doing things backwards, focusing on the figure instead of the task assigned to him.

This is part of the culture which depends on a figure; that's why Soeharto stayed around so long. Once there's a top figure, you can't see the others.

What is wrong with having a charismatic figure as a leader? Won't he be helped by the NU's executive and law-making board?

What is charisma? It's not like a peci (traditional cap), making anyone who wears it charismatic. It's built on wisdom, knowledge, experience ... It's of no use if the task assigned does not match the skills of the person.

Would you say friction among Muslims will take a long time to resolve, given the diversity of Islam here?

If people are willing to study their religion deeper, I'm not worried. If you and I had different perceptions there would be no friction, knowing we had the same level of knowledge. The problem is when people think they have mastered their religion and are no longer willing to study it, while they have to become leaders ... then when they use religious symbols, their perceptions filter down to their followers.

The same thing applies to Catholics, Christians ... where believers do not thoroughly understand their religion and use religious symbols, this always leads to problems.

Problems are also caused here by the highly spirited stance of people wanting to be religious without having a strong knowledge of religion ....

The elections, in which NU members became involved in conflicts, are past, but it seems that emotions are still easy to flare.

If members and leaders carefully read the principles of NU, it is stated clearly how members should act as individuals, as groups ... it calls for tolerance in relations with one another and with people of different creeds. Those who understand this would not be raising the idea of "us versus them" .... (These principles can be forgotten) when political interests get in the way ....(anr)