'MUI does not fully understand our political and social map'

The 11 fatwas (edicts) that the Indonesian Ulemas Council (MUI) issued recently have sparked controversy among Muslims. The Jakarta Post's Sri Wahyuni talked to Muslim scholar Ahmad Syafii Maarif, who is also former chairman of Indonesia's second biggest Muslim organization Muhammadiyah, about the edicts and other related issues. The following is an excerpt from the interview.

Question: What is your comment about the fatwas?

Answer: Some points in the fatwas are actually good, for example, the ones regarding ownership of personal property and marriages between people of different religions. Empirical studies have indeed revealed that such marriages seldom work well.

Others, however, do not seem to have been carefully considered for their social and political impacts on the community, for example, the fatwas on Ahmadiyah and on liberal Islam, secularism, and pluralism.

I have been told that on Friday (Aug. 5, 2005), the Islamic Defenders Front (FPI) plan to attack the headquarters of the Liberal Islam Network (JIL) due to the fatwa (on liberal Islam). This is really uncivilized (biadab) and does not reflect the Islamic spirit that teaches people to be always patient in dealing with differences of opinion.

Does it mean that this particular edict has the potential to incite violence?

Yes, in the sense that it provides stimulus to radical groups, making them feel they have religious justification from the fatwa. MUI does not fully understand our social and political map. Although fatwas are not binding, radical groups who have a thirst for power will make use of them for their own interests. It is as if they have been given religious justification.

Liberal Islam is just one interpretation of Islam. Even among Islamic liberals, there are also differences of opinion. The fatwas lack thorough, comprehensive background and study.

Regarding pluralism, similarly, it's a historical fact. We don't have to worry about it. Even the Koran says in a verse in al-Hujurat that God has created women and men in nations, in tribes, so that they will know each other. It (pluralism) is very clear.

What about the conversion of Muslims to other religions that has also concerned the MUI?

It is indeed concerning and must be prevented. According to fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence), a Muslim who converts (to become a non-Muslim) indeed must be punished and even executed. But it's all the result of ijtihad thought. The basis (of this) is very weak in the Koran. It's the business of the (respective) people and God. No court in the world has the right to punish them. I think this needs re-interpretation.

What about the fatwa on Ahmadiyah?

We have Ahmadiyah Lahore, that recognizes its founder as just a reformer, and Ahmadiyah Qadian, that considers its founder as a prophet. In this case, if we have reminded them but they still believe what they believe, why should they be beaten? Why should we attack them? It only damages the good image of Islam as rakhmatan lil 'alamin (for the goodness of the world). Even with an atheist we can be neighbors. So, let it be their own problem, but let's work together for worldly affairs within the framework of "be brothers in difference, be different in brotherhood".

Scientific studies therefore are needed to re-study the controversial fatwas. But, most importantly, the police force must not allow anyone to commit acts of violence by making use of the fatwas. It is, again, completely uncivilized. It's not religious at all.

Do you think these controversial fatwas will influence the MUI's existence in the future?

It depends on whether the MUI is capable of developing wisdom in Indonesia or whether they will be exploited by radical groups that thirst for power. Some of these radical groups become terrorists and do not have a future. They have nothing to offer humanity, to fight against the wave of atheism, secularism. They have no capital at all. I call them thugs in robes (preman berjubah).

To be frank, both secularism and fundamentalism have similar socio-political impacts. If secularists get rid of their God, dump their religion, and worship human beings so that they have no moral reference, then fundamentalists hijack God to obtain power. They (fundamentalists) are also very authoritarian. Their studies, both of Islam and of other religions, are all the same. Remember, fundamentalism does not just exist in Islam. It also exists in other religions. In fact, fundamentalism first emerged among Christians in the U.S.

Such attitudes, (trying to) monopolize the truth, is a characteristic of all religions. And it is very dangerous because it does not give a chance or room for others to have different opinions. In fact, it is impossible for people not to have differences of opinion. Even people of the same religion have differences of opinion, much less those of different religions. (Differences of opinion) are legal and common. It enriches human civilization and is not forbidden. Killing (difference) is just the same as killing civilization. How does Islam deal with differences of opinion?

The Koran, for example, says in an Al-Baqoroh verse that there is no compulsion in religion. In another verse (Yunus 99), it even emphasizes this further by saying "If God wanted it to be so, all the people in the world would be devoted. So, do you (Muhammad) want to force people to be devoted like you?" So, there are no such rights. His (Muhammad's) obligation was just to convey. It depends on the people whether they will accept it or not. It's a matter of free choice.

Thus, according to my understanding, the Koran provides the widest freedom for human beings to choose. It is completely up to them to pick this way or the other, of course, with all the risks that carries.

Does it mean that denying pluralism can also be perceived as denying Islamic teaching?

That's completely right. I'm really sad knowing Muslims in Indonesia, who are in the majority, seem to lack confidence. It's probably because the Islam we have in our minds has been so far removed from the Islamic spirit.