Juwono speaks on Maluku tragedy

The military has been censured for its inability to stop the violence in the Maluku islands. Minister of Defense Juwono Sudarsono candidly spoke to The Jakarta Post's reporter Fabiola Desy Unidjadja about this and the political situation as a whole.

Question: In the consultation meeting (with the House of Representatives) on the Maluku issue, you said there were demands for legal action against certain Army personnel in the province. Is there any proof of their involvement in the violence?

Answer: From the beginning there were soldiers stationed there who, maybe because of their innate sympathies, began to take sides. And, according to local legislators, there were uncontrollable factors, or possible even an intention on the part of the Army as an institution, which allowed the clashes go on.

Now there are 17 battalions from the Army, two from the police and some marine units. Police and marines are no problem there.

There are some, or even many, members of the Army, according to information gathered from both of the warring camps, who have become a major cause of the clashes.

Q: Are you saying these soldiers provoked or helped the clashes spread?

A: In facilitating. For example, there was a container loaded with firearms entering the area. They did nothing about it, they let it enter.

Q: Are there high-ranking officers masterminding all this?

A: That's it. They regret the military replacing Max Tamaela (who served as Pattimura Military Commander till June), but at the same time promoting him.

They question how much control Army Headquarters has, how effective the Army command structure is in Maluku?

There are some local Maluku legislators who claim that they (the officers) are a cancer and the source of their financing should be investigated.

There are also indications that they are associated with former president Soeharto and B.J. Habibie's cronies.

Q: Are you sure these Army officers are linked to Soeharto and Habibie?

A: Both civilians and Army officers. We are still investigating it, but still haven't found enough concrete evidence.

However, we should differentiate between the Army as an institution, medium-sized units, and small units.

Let's just describe the problem as one involving certain Army personnel, because although the command structure and commanders have changed, there are many from the ancient regime still filling lower positions.

The army should get rid of these soldiers.

The key question is who provides the money, who sends the guns? They must have strong financial support.

There must be financial support from Jakarta, that's why we have to cut-off the links with this cancer. There are very strong indications but they are hard to verify.

Q: How are you going to prevent this from happening again?

A: The Ministry of Defense is not directly in charge of the chain of command. I cannot order them around...both the minister of defense and the military chiefs are subordinates of the President. We are equals.

All I can give is advice and policy inputs to rehabilitate the entire Army.

I have some advice with regard to the whole issue of the Army deployment and how to replace Army units which have been stationed there for over six months and have become involved (in the conflict).

First by separating these units from the conflict-prone areas (in Maluku) and assigning them to medium conflict areas and to secure areas.

I still believe a majority of the Army won't take sides with the warring factions.

Q: Many are questioning why the military seems slow in resolving these conflicts and are even suggesting foreign assistance...

A: The TNI and National Police can still cope, and in three months things will calm down. Within two or three months there will be a more conducive atmosphere. We don't need outside help.

We are also not planning to send too many troops outside the capital ahead of the upcoming General Session (of the People's Consultative Assembly).

I understand that people have high hopes of my office. I know I have a national and international audience watching the transition to happen inside the military.

But there are also high demands for me because of the serious situation in the country that I have to handle...But give me three months, things will be a different.

The problems in Maluku started in January 1999. Back then there should already have been military action, but people complained that the military might take excessive measures.

Now that we have decreed a state of civil emergency, we are condemned again. People say we are too late.

These are the same people who criticized us for taking excessive measures. You just cannot win with these people.

I understand that many people are clamoring for my head. I don't know why. This is definitely not the easiest job in the world.

Q: What's your opinion of the current political chaos in relation to the many clashes on the ground?

A: We appeal to all political leaders and political analysts, to tone down their political contest as it has negative consequences for people on the ground. They should be very careful what they say.

The most dangerous threat is not the military, because they aren't unified enough and they don't have a desire to take over the government.

The real danger is political backsliding, there is too much democracy, too many talking heads who just talk, too much brainstorming but nothing except storms. The civilian authority must be successful.

Political parties must become institutionalized. We are good at creating movements, but not at getting organized. We need a leader like the Indian Sitting Bull, but all we get are bull shitter leaders.