JP/5/JUN

What is the current nature of relations between the government and the Indonesian Military? Jun Honna, assistant professor at the Faculty of International Relations of Ritsumeikan University in Kyoto, spoke to The Jakarta Post's staff writer Kornelius Purba during one of his visits to Jakarta earlier this month.

Question: Some say the relations between President Megawati Soekarnoputri and the Indonesian Military (TNI) are warmer than they were with her predecessor Abdurrahman Wahid (Gus Dur). Do you share this view?

Answer: I think the relationship between the military and Megawati is much closer than it was with Gus Dur due to his constant meddling in TNI's affairs. That is why military officers got angry with him and finally they helped, pushed and encouraged the People's Consultative Assembly (MPR) to speed up Gus Dur's impeachment.

They succeeded, and because of that contribution Megawati needs to include the TNI in her government. That is why at least four ministers are from a military background. They will play an important role ...

Conservative elements of TNI are now said to be back in control of the military.

I agree, especially if you look at the messages given out by Megawati's selection of certain people. She relies on Maj.Gen. (ret.) Theo Syafei as an executive of her Indonesian Democratic Party of Struggle (PDI Perjuangan). She also picked Lt.Gen.(ret). A.M. Hendropriyono to head the National Intelligence Agency (BIN). She has a very close relationship with Army chief Gen. Endriartono Sutarto, and she also has a very cozy relationship with Commander of the Army's Strategic Reserves (Kostrad) Lt.Gen. Ryamizard Ryacudu.

These people are not hardliners, but key people in the Army. And especially people like Hendropriyono and Theo, are also former special forces (Kopassus) members. I think if these people influence Megawati's policy, it will be quite difficult to expect genuine reform of civilian-military relations. There is an impression that the military now feels freer in facing the people under Megawati.

That will depend on Megawati's policy, but of course the military is not independent from Megawati. I think Megawati will also try to control the military for her own political interests, but will choose a different way from that of Gus Dur. She has good military advisers who may influence her on how to deal with the military ... .

What is Megawati's strategy in dealing with the military?

We have to look at what happens over the next six months, but I think Megawati's strategy for TNI is to try to control it through the officers she is close to.

Will the Army become stronger?

I don't think there will be a great difference between the Megawati and Gus Dur administrations regarding the military's role in politics. TNI keeps repeating its formal stance, on its consensus against being involved in politics.

But the problem is that when the military is used by the President, then the military inevitably becomes involved in politics. That could happen with Megawati too, if she tries to use the military for her own political interests. If that happens, the military will resist.

The question should be ... if Megawati issued certain orders, could TNI (given its leadership's close relations with the President) resist as easily as it did under Gus Dur's government? TNI's Territorial Chief of Staff Lt.Gen. Agus Wijoyo said that the military is ready to hand over its territorial functions to civilian institutions. How do you see this?

It takes time to transform the territorial system into a more civilian-led system regarding the regions. Whatever form it takes, a defense system depends on the country and its geo- political circumstances. So in reforming the system, we need to reach a consensus between the civilians and the military. But until now territorial management has been dominated by military people.

In the future the military has neither the ability nor the desire to dominate this territorial system. TNI is ready to hand over some of its duties to civilian institutions. The question is whether civilian institutions are really ready to take over the regional control mechanism.

The issue is not whether TNI is ready to withdraw from its territorial role, as it indeed has political interests. It is easy to ask soldiers to return to barracks, but what they will do after that?

Do you think TNI is sincere in abandoning its territorial role?

If you look at Thailand for instance, they have military divisions but there is no military command as you have here. Of course its geographic situation is different so we cannot compare Indonesia directly with other countries. Thailand is also adopting a new paradigm because the military there is expected to follow the shift towards democracy.

Thailand's military also owns businesses, which are now being drastically cut. Indonesia may need up to, say, 10 years, depending on the particular area, to reduce the number of military commands, regional military districts, district military commands down to the sub-district level (Babinsa).

The military is now identifying sample areas to see where its (different levels of) military command could first be dissolved, and will watch what happens (in those areas). If that program is successful it will expand it to larger areas.

TNI has allegedly been involved in many riots and other violent incidents. Will such a situation persist?

Of course it is very hard to anticipate whether the current terrorist activities (allegedly involving TNI) will continue. But if you look at the pattern, when the government tried to punish people who were involved in the old regime, those kinds of terrorist activities occurred. So maybe in the future, under Megawati's government, if Megawati tried to punish the old guard among the civilians and military, there is a strong possibility that terrorist activities might happen again, aimed at destabilizing the country. How about the current TNI mainstream?

The mainstream is of course people around Gen. Sutarto. He has become popular for publicly resisting Gus Dur's political maneuvers. Many thought Gus Dur's decree on the state of emergency was wrong ... .

At that time the General received support from most of the retired officers. This is unusual. Usually only a few retired officers support an Army chief. Many think that this event is similar to the one involving the late Gen. Sudirman who had the courage to resist president Sukarno. I think the mainstream includes Sutarto, Ryamizard, and Army deputy chief Lt.Gen. Kiki Syahnakri. What is Gen. Sutarto's power base?

His power base is his good reputation as a professional soldier, (among others things, with his) experience in East Timor and other operations in the field. He is very straightforward, he is not the type of person who simply talks but does nothing. Until now he has always been assigned to key positions. He was a key officer under Gen. Wiranto and then he became Army deputy chief. I think his power base is his own experience as an officer in the field. It is still difficult to find such a strong character within TNI. He is respected by many officers.

With the ongoing economic hardship the military is also in financial difficulty.

After the economic crisis had started it was quite difficult for each regional military command to augment its budget, so soldiers' wages remained very low. That is a big problem, as we are promoting professionalism within the military. It is easy to say that the military should return to barracks, that it should be professionalized, but without support from civilians in providing a large enough budget, it will be very difficult for the military to act professionally.

I think civilians, especially politicians, do not respect military professionalism. They tend to look at military people only in terms of their political interests. Within the military there is no incentive to implement professionalism. Funding resources usually emanate from territorial activities.

The military used to be involved in local businesses, like providing protection for foreign companies in Irian Jaya, Aceh and other provinces. Without such extra resources, it will be difficult for the military to survive financially. Its sources of financial support have become smaller and smaller. Gus Dur appointed Adm. Widodo from the Navy as TNI chief. What will Megawati's policy be on TNI leadership?

There are a number of possibilities. The first choice would be to appoint current Air Force chief Marshall Hanafie Asnan as Widodo's successor. After a few years she might want Army officers to command TNI. Within TNI there is a kind of agreement to award the position of TNI chief to different forces by rotation.

It's possible that Hanafie might lead TNI. But I think Megawati wants the Army chief to be the TNI commander. So after one year, there may be another change of leadership. But it is also possible that she will directly appoint Gen. Sutarto as TNI commander when Widodo ends his military service. If that were to happen, we could expect some opposition from the Air Force, so Megawati will have to be careful in handling this issue. How about antimilitary sentiment among the public?.

The public perception of the military is not good because of the military's past behaviors, especially its human rights abuses. Citizens need public security, while the police has not functioned well. That's why a recent public poll by Yogyakarta- based Gadjah Mada University found that most people questioned preferred the continued presence of the military commands and the territorial system. But we have to look at the nature of their support. Maybe they need the military commands because people simply want security. If reliable public security could be provided by the police, people might express a different opinion.