'Indonesia needs to learn a lot about human rights'

'Indonesia needs to learn a lot about human rights'

The call by United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan for
intervention in the face of gross human rights violations has
sparked a controversy. International legal expert from Gadjah
Mada University in Yogyakarta Sugeng Istanto discusses the issue
with The Jakarta Post.

Question: How do you view the Secretary-General's appeal
regarding intervention in strife torn regions even with the
approval of the concerned government?

Answer: The United Nations (UN) can indeed request the
Security Council to take certain measures toward alleged
violations of peace and international order. However this can
only be done based on existing rules.

The UN is an international organization whose members come
from sovereign countries. The international community still
sticks to this principal. Unless there are certain things which
enable intervention, the Security Council's authority is not
unlimited. If there are violations against international law, the
Security Council still needs permission from the concerned
country (to take action).

Q: What are the existing international rules in this case?

A: The existing rules concerning international tribunals require
approval from the involved parties. The rules on wars -- in this
case the 1949 Geneva Convention -- to conduct an inquiry into a
certain country, also require permission. Only then can the UN
set up an inquiry team.

There are certain instances which do not need permission. One
example was when Iraq occupied Kuwait and multinational forces
then attacked Iraq. What happened was a violation of
international law which does not allow the aggression of one
state toward another.

In the case of East Timor, the international community also
considers this a case of aggression or occupation; an
international crime took place, for instance a violation towards
international order or war crimes.

But under international law it is also possible for gross
crimes to be handled by domestic courts.

Q: Would you also categorize the East Timor case as aggression?

A: In East Timor there were parts of the community who accepted
the entrance of Indonesia. So I don't think the UN could enter
just like that and I know the UN has been very careful about
this. Through the tripartite agreement involving Indonesia and
Portugal the UN also acknowledges Indonesia's sovereignty over
East Timor, however temporary.

I privately see an element of coercion when Indonesia entered
East Timor. But at that time we got the support of western
countries, given fears of a second Cuba. Strangely, once we were
in East Timor we were negligent. We prioritized security instead
of welfare.

Q: Some say the UN is discriminative regarding violations of
international rules such as those concerning human rights by
different countries. Your comment?

A: I haven't followed that too closely. But it is clear from
reports that violations in other countries such as racial
discrimination in the United States do exist. Violations towards
the rights of the Aborigines in Australia are never raised by the
international community while child labor here is blown up.

Q: Why do you think such discriminative treatment occurs?

A: I would say it is the security approach applied by the New
Order regime. The United States supported our entrance into East
Timor and I believe it retracted its support because of the
security approach applied in the territory. A welfare approach
there would have drawn international support despite (the
campaign), even though there are figures like Jose Ramos Horta
and Jose Alexandre "Xanana" Gusmao.

Respect for human rights is considered the source of
democracy. And if rights are no longer respected in one country
this would affect other countries. This is the western view. It
is regrettable that the government did not take a human rights
approach in the East Timor case.

Q: Would you say there are certain interests behind the
discrimination?

A: What is clear is the principal that all humans are entitled to
the same treatment irrespective of ethnicity, creed, race or
nationality. I think Indonesia must still learn a lot about human
rights and how to treat people equally. The strong should not
oppress the weak, they should instead protect the weak. (swa)