Civil society, civility are constructs of the mind

The following is an excerpt from an interview with Ariel Heryanto Ph.D, a sociologist and lecturer at a university in Singapore.

Question: How do you see the election of Abdurrahman Wahid and Megawati Soekarnoputri as president and vice president respectively?

Ariel: I was no less surprised than many other people. But like many others, in retrospect, I am inclined to think that Gus Dur and Megawati may make the best couple under the current (difficult) circumstances in Indonesia.

How do you see both leaders' track record?

I have great respect for each of them for what they have and have not done. They are not Gods. I don't always agree with their statements, silences, or actions, but maybe this is partly because I don't see the full situations within which they operate. They may not be the most competent people in this, the world's fourth most populous country, but they were what most of us knew to be the best candidates in the official list at the last presidential election. They are as human as the rest of us. They are so Indonesian, like most of us.

Indonesia has been dogged by continued civil unrest in the last couple of years, including ethnic and religious clashes. Can we expect the emergence of civil society in such a situation?

You don't expect me to be able to answer such an important and weighty question with a few sentences in an interview, do you? But let me offer you a share of what should be an endless discussion among many people. Being a teacher, I can't help believing that education plays a crucial role here.

I know this sounds naive and perhaps laughable but at the time when Indonesia was torn apart by violence, students marched heroically to the Assembly building while many other Indonesians were starving. My answer may smack of the old conservative modernization theory that lost credibility in the 1970s.

Despite all that, I still believe civil society and civility are things that you construct more with the mind than muscle or matter. I am not saying that education will be able to change society in an easy, quick or single-handed fashion.

In fact, we must admit that our education system and institutions are currently more a part of the problem than a solution. Nonetheless, I can't imagine the work of building a more civil and civilized society can take place without education taking a more crucial role. By education, of course, I mean more than schools. Mass media is a profound component.

What should Abdurrahman and Megawati do about the social conflict currently going on within some groups in Indonesia?

I am sure they know better than many us about what to be done. We have seen them doing many good things as non-state officials. Now that they are officials, one is anxious to see to what extent they will be able to continue what they have said they aspired to.

Perhaps the more important question is what the rest of us should do. You don't want to leave all responsibilities to your government, do you?

How do you see the people's struggle for a civilian society in this crisis-ridden nation? Is there still any hope?

So many Indonesians have not only survived this difficult time, but they have also consistently demonstrated impressive stamina, persistence, imagination and capabilities to overcome it. Now, the road is clearer. So, why doubt them?

In the recent general session of the People's Consultative Assembly (MPR) professionals gathered at the Stock Exchange demonstrating against Habibie's nomination. Do you think this kind of social movement will strengthen in the future?

With all respect to these professionals, I believe such a move was not as consequential as often suggested. These professionals occupy strategic positions and could have done, and still can do, a lot more to democratize the nation by engaging in other activities. They definitely have some power as a pressure group, but not in the form of street demonstrators. They are not like students.

Will workers' groups strengthen in the future as a result of globalization?

The workers are not like those professionals. Their conditions and strengths are different. It remains unclear to me whether the workers will gain much more political force. There are reasons to believe that exploitation of labor forces will increase. However, we also have reasons to believe that Indonesian workers have learnt lessons in the past decade on how to rise and organize themselves. I simply do not know what their positions will be like in two or three years time from now. What I can be more certain about is that their contribution to the economy will be considerably significant. And industrial relations will be full of tension.

The line between status quo and reformist forces seems blurred now, judging from the newly elected leaders in the MPR and the line up of the new Cabinet. How will it effect the nation in the future?

In the real world, the boundaries between social categories are never clear. We only make them clear cut in papers and speeches. It is sad that so many people kill each other for believing otherwise.

Reformasi (political reformation), like democracy, is not a thing. It is sometimes a slogan, sometimes an orientation, a rallying cry, a cause for action or a Utopia. This is not a criticism. I like it with all its diverse colors.

Tension between the nationalist and the Islamist groups seemed to lurk behind last week's General Session. How do you see this phenomenon?

I am not sure of the validity of such a dichotomy. I am sure what happened was both more and less complex than that. Definitely it was not a fully democratic process.

As an intellectual living in a foreign country, do you see a role that you and your colleagues in other countries could play to help improve the present difficult situation in Indonesia?

I think they must be in close contact with their fellows in Indonesia. The precise nature of their contributions must not be assumed to exist independently from what their fellows in Indonesia are doing. They cannot claim to know what is best for Indonesia. Without such a consultative and collaborative mechanism, bright intellectuals living in Indonesian will not know how to make their contribution.

Worse, they may blame Indonesia for failing to recognize and appreciate their achievements. Or they will end up joining the brain drain to other countries, while Indonesia may continue to consult foreign experts, perhaps of inferior quality than those unknown Indonesians residing overseas. (Ignatius Haryanto)