Swiss minister: Transparency, guts necessary to fight corruption<\/p>\n
A group of journalists from Indonesia, Malaysia and Vietnam,
\nincluding Riyadi Suparno of The Jakarta Post, visited Switzerland
\nrecently at the invitation of the Swiss government. One of the
\nfunctions of the visit was to meet with government officials,
\nincluding Pascal Couchepin, federal councillor and head of the
\nFederal Department of Home Affairs. The following is an excerpt
\nof an interview with Couchepin.<\/p>\n
Question: According to Transparency International, Switzerland is
\none of the world's least corrupt countries. But, how do you
\nregard yourself in terms of corruption?<\/p>\n
I've been in politics for almost 40 years now. With the
\nexception of two persons whom I consider as corrupt, I have never
\nmet somebody who is financially corrupt. If I can find corruption
\nin Switzerland, it's not about money, but (rather about)
\nfriendship or favoritism, with political reasons. You help
\nsomebody who has the same political line as you, but no money is
\ninvolved.<\/p>\n
I know my people are honest. If they are not, and commit
\ncorruption, there must be somebody who will come to me and tell
\nme about it.<\/p>\n
How do you manage a government relatively free of corruption?
\nWhat can you suggest to corrupt countries like Indonesia to
\neradicate corruption?<\/p>\n
Corruption always appears in so many discussions I have had
\nwith dignitaries such as James Wolfensohn, former World Bank
\npresident. In every of those discussions, I always began with a
\nsmall story. In the beginning of the 19th century, when there was
\na huge flood in Switzerland, the tsar of Russia sent hundreds of
\nthousands of gold rubles to the poor parts of Switzerland and
\nwarned them to be very careful in the distribution of money. This
\nwas so because they were very corrupt.<\/p>\n
And to think that the Russian emperor wanted to eradicate
\ncorruption in Switzerland is something extraordinary today. So,
\nwhat happened? I'm convinced that it's all about democracy. If
\nthere is transparency, if the media can report things as they are
\n-- but you must not exaggerate things and you must not support
\ncrazy people -- I'm convinced you can (eradicate corruption).<\/p>\n
I remember when I was young, I lived near the Swiss-Italian
\nborder. When I was a soldier, I remember a time when we had to
\nstop shooting exercises at 5 p.m. to let smugglers cross the
\nborder. They sold Swiss cigarettes to Italy because the taxes
\nover there were very high. Why did they do that? It's because
\nthey knew Italian officers were poor and little paid, and they
\nwere not on duty at 5 p.m., and they would have returned by 8
\np.m. and nothing had happened. It was well known that they could
\nnot survive if they could not get some (additional) money. They
\nhad children, and so on... But Italy now I think has less
\ncorruption than in the past because the civil servants are better
\npaid.<\/p>\n
So, in addition to transparency, you need a smaller
\nadministration with better pay. Look at Singapore, there is no
\ncorruption. But even a minister in Singapore is better paid than
\nwe are. So, they are fantastically well paid. And you see no
\ncorruption.<\/p>\n
Does it mean that eradicating corruption has so much to do
\nwith better salary?<\/p>\n
Yes, it's about salary, transparency, and culture of
\ngoverning. But do not exaggerate the culture because Switzerland
\ndid not have this kind of clean culture 200 years ago.<\/p>\n
And actually, besides those things, the state must be able to
\nfunction. I read in an article somewhere about corruption in
\nRussia, where corruption has become institutionalized. If
\ncorruption is well organized that everybody knows how much to pay
\nfor this and that, this is the start of a state failure, and this
\nis dangerous.<\/p>\n
Also, during the communist time in Poland, there was a saying,
\n\"if you don't steal from the state, you must be stealing from
\nyour family.\"<\/p>\n
If a corrupt officer can come to you and ask you certain
\namount of money for, say, a protection service, it's dangerous.
\nIf you can bypass (a rule) by paying US$15 to an officer, it is
\nbetter than going to the office and not getting anything. If they
\nstart asking everybody the same amount of money for the same
\nservice, it's become public service.<\/p>\n
You can stop it by making it legal as a public service. So,
\nyou can stop it only if at least there is a rule, and you all
\nrespect it.<\/p>\n
What about gifts or bribery? How do you handle this issue?<\/p>\n
Let say, if people are happy with your service, and give you
\n1,000 Swiss francs (US$780), you must put it in a special book...
\nThe rule is you can accept a gift of between 300 and 500 Swiss
\nfrancs. If it's more than that, you have to give it to the
\nstate... The rule of thumb is that there is no corruption if you
\naccept the gift and eat it for one day. But, if you cannot finish
\nit for one-day meals, it's corruption.<\/p>\n
Once, I got a gift from (Italian Prime Minister Silvio)
\nBerlusconi. It was worth more than 500 Swiss francs. I reported
\nthis to the Cabinet, and told them \"Look I got a gift from Mr.
\nBerlusconi, it's worth more than 500 Swiss francs, do you allow
\nme to keep it?\" They said, \"Alright, yes.\" Then, I donated the
\ngift to a church. So, you must tell members of the Cabinet or the
\ngovernment.<\/p>\n
Last year, I went to Qatar. When I left, a sheikh there gave
\nme a medal, a gold medal, worth 2,000 Swiss francs. I said,
\n\"Sorry I must give this to the government.\" The day after I left,
\nsomebody brought me a plastic bag, he said, \"This is a gift from
\nthe sheikh.\" I looked at that, it was 12 gold medals, each worth
\n2,000 Swiss frank. Extraordinary. I told all members of the
\nCabinet, \"Look, I got these gifts, could I give them to a city
\nwhere I was a mayor.\" They said okay. But two months later, I
\nread in a newspaper, that this sheikh was under house arrest
\nbecause he bought antique artifacts from a Qatar museum. If I did
\nnot report that to the government, I would likely be in trouble.<\/p>\n
So, in government, you must be free of corruption. Otherwise,
\npeople will attack you.<\/p>\n
Do you know about Indonesia? Indonesia now has a president who
\nis relatively committed to fighting corruption. Do you have any
\ncomment?<\/p>\n
But we all make commitments. You still need the guts, the guts
\nto confront the corruptors...<\/p>\n
Don't ask too much of your president. Ask him to improve the
\nsystem. Don't ask him to be perfect in one day because it takes
\ntime. But in four years, we must see progress. Tell him, we
\nsupport you in this endeavor.<\/p>",
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